Voir la version complète : discover mondragon.
they call it the jewel of basque nationalism , imazighen have to learn a lot from other nations experiences , and this particular one is unique , it may not be duplicated elsewhere in the world but valuable lessons will be drawen for sure.
http://www.mondragon.mcc.es
blooming together or wilting alone?
by stephen c . smith
http://www.wider.unu.edu/publications/dps/dp2001-27.pdf
the mondragon system:cooperation at work
by the institute for LOCAL SELF-RELIANCE (1992)
http://www.newrules.org/resources/MondragonCo-op.pdf
they call it the jewel of basque nationalism , imazighen have to learn a lot from other nations experiences , and this particular one is unique , it may not be duplicated elsewhere in the world but valuable lessons will be drawen for sure.
.............................
As strange as this may seem to anyone reading this, the Algerian government has contributed greatly in the autonomy agreement that was reached by the Basque and Spanish government.
How did Algeria contribute, you may ask ...
Well, the Algerians have trained Basques in guerilla warfare ... and strange enough, in those days, the Spanish government ask the Algerian one ... to mediate (SO IT WAS WRITTEN THE IN SOME PAPERS)!
As they say "What's good for the goose (is) should be good for the gander!"
amazir9999
29/12/2005, 14h00
As strange as this may seem to anyone reading this, the Algerian government has contributed greatly in the autonomy agreement that was reached by the Basque and Spanish government.
How did Algeria contribute, you may ask ...
Well, the Algerians have trained Basques in guerilla warfare ... and strange enough, in those days, the Spanish government ask the Algerian one ... to mediate (SO IT WAS WRITTEN THE IN SOME PAPERS)!
As they say "What's good for the goose (is) should be good for the gander!"
Hello, Azul,
Yes, it's a very interresting article you have written. Have you more informations (or where I can find them) concerning the contribution of Algeria in Basques' autonomy (Euskera/Euskadi). Also do you know if Basques or Spain Government help,in some ways, kabylian Citizen in their own autonomy.
Best regards
menouar
azul , hmidcc , amazir9999
to be honest , i never heard about algerians training the basques in the guerilla warfare ,to my knowledge the algerians did train the canarians (antonio cubillo's organization) to put pressure on spain to withdraw her support to morocco's annexation of west sahara , and they succeded.
the basques fought for almost a century in order to recover their sovereignty lost during the carlist war at the end of the 19 th century,in 1959 some members of the youth branch of the basque nationalist party (PNV) decided to break up with the passivity of their leaders in exile, and choose to defy the political hegemony of franco regime ,the new organization (euskadi ta askatasuna) ETA was radical not only in the methods used but ideologically shifted to the left ,and considered it self as a liberation movement fighting to liberate the basque country from colonial spain ! and the ALGERIAN ANTI-COLONIAL WAR SERVED AS AN INSPIRATIONAL MODEL for ETA organization.
after the death of franco , basque nationalism used the stick and carrot in its dealing with the centralist goverment in madrid , in order to extract and transfer as much political and financial powers to the basque autonomous community, the hammer of ETA benefited greatly the moderate nationalists in their negociations with any madrid goverments .
the other algerian connection to the basque problem that i know of , is that all political talks between the spanish goverment and ETA organization took place in algeria .
hmiducc..
i will be delighted to know about your source if possible , i will truly apreciate any new information.
thanks
azul amazir9999
if spanish goverment will ever help kabylia obtain some degree of sovereignty ?
the answer is a clear NO , it is obvious that any centralist government with jacobin roots who adopted the french model of governance , will oppose any political devolution of the nation-state system.
as for the basques or the catalans , i think they will be the most natural allies for kabylia and rif if they persued their struggle for political autonomy.
historically the basques were more oriented to the americas (more basques live in the americas than in euskal herria,3.5 million basques live in argentina) ,catalunya on the other hand was always oriented to the mediterranean ,and they are looking for fresh alliances with other regions in europe and mediterranean ,they support for example the coofficialization of tamazight in melilla (and so do basques,galicians...) .
i think both catalunya and euskadi will help ,only if we ask......
for more information about the basque society,history and politics , this i hope will be a useful link :
http://www.euskalnet.net/sjf/basquelinks1.htm
azul , hmidcc , amazir9999
to be honest , i never heard about algerians training the basques in the guerilla warfare ,to my knowledge the algerians did train the canarians (antonio cubillo's organization) to put pressure on spain to withdraw her support to morocco's annexation of west sahara , and they succeded.
...............................................
Azul,
J'ai hésité à répondre et donner des sources, car si je devais, il m'aurait fallu citer des noms (d'ex personnalité algérienne sans leur autorisation).
Je tiens à souligner ici que j'ai personnellement rencontré des BASQUES et des CUBAINS à Boumerdès, et je savais pourquoi ils étaient là.
Je peux vous citer une arcticle récent qui y fait allusion (clairement) de la présence de ces gens en 1973.
et je cite:
...En 1973, le président Boumediene a jugé qu'il fallait à tout prix une ouverture sur l'Atlantique. L'idée de négocier avec le Maroc dans ce sens l'avait effleuré mais ne l'avait pas enchanté à cause du contentieux des confins algéro-marocains. Des propositions ont même été faites à Rabat. L'Algérie, à cette époque, hébergeait sur son sol des séparatistes espagnols (Basques, Catalans et Canariens). Elle a usé de ces cartes maîtresses pour faire infléchir Madrid à tourner le dos au Maroc. C'est alors qu'Alger a misé sur la création d'une république sahraouie indépendante, à fabriquer de toutes pièces avec l'aide de Madrid. Cette nouvelle entité, qui serait à arracher au territoire marocain, resterait à la dévotion de son concepteur et lui permettrait un accès facile aux ports atlantiques. Ceux-ci sont aujourd'hui réalises, avec une technique des plus modernes, par le Royaume chérifien dans une région ou Rabat a investi des centaines de milliards de DH. Certains analystes éclairés sont arrivés à conclure que l'entêtement algérien à vouloir une ouverture sur l'Atlantique est la principale cause de l'actuel conflit saharien. .....
Voir le site: http://www.sahara-occidental.com/pages/informer/presse/journal02.htm
J'espère que vous comprenez de quoi je parle.
Amicalement
Hmiducc
azul , hmidcc , amazir9999
to be honest , i never heard about algerians training the basques in the guerilla warfare ,to my knowledge the algerians did train the canarians (antonio cubillo's organization) to put pressure on spain to withdraw her support to morocco's annexation of west sahara , and they succeded.
...............................................
Azul,
J'ai hésité à répondre et donner des sources, car si je devais, il m'aurait fallu citer des noms (d'ex personnalité algérienne sans leur autorisation).
Je tiens à souligner ici que j'ai personnellement rencontré des BASQUES et des CUBAINS à Boumerdès, et je savais pourquoi ils étaient là.
Je peux vous citer une arcticle récent qui y fait allusion (clairement) de la présence de ces gens en 1973.
et je cite:
...En 1973, le président Boumediene a jugé qu'il fallait à tout prix une ouverture sur l'Atlantique. L'idée de négocier avec le Maroc dans ce sens l'avait effleuré mais ne l'avait pas enchanté à cause du contentieux des confins algéro-marocains. Des propositions ont même été faites à Rabat. L'Algérie, à cette époque, hébergeait sur son sol des séparatistes espagnols (Basques, Catalans et Canariens). Elle a usé de ces cartes maîtresses pour faire infléchir Madrid à tourner le dos au Maroc. C'est alors qu'Alger a misé sur la création d'une république sahraouie indépendante, à fabriquer de toutes pièces avec l'aide de Madrid. Cette nouvelle entité, qui serait à arracher au territoire marocain, resterait à la dévotion de son concepteur et lui permettrait un accès facile aux ports atlantiques. Ceux-ci sont aujourd'hui réalises, avec une technique des plus modernes, par le Royaume chérifien dans une région ou Rabat a investi des centaines de milliards de DH. Certains analystes éclairés sont arrivés à conclure que l'entêtement algérien à vouloir une ouverture sur l'Atlantique est la principale cause de l'actuel conflit saharien. .....
Voir le site: http://www.sahara-occidental.com/pages/informer/presse/journal02.htm
J'espère que vous comprenez de quoi je parle.
Amicalement
Hmiducc
thanks hmiducc
if you have personally witnessed the presence of cubans and basques on algerian soil, than it is more convincing than the printed press.
i took your word for it !
tanemirt
Papillon
30/01/2006, 02h45
I believe that during that era we were helping almost every small group in the world. Whether it was a public knowledge or not! It does not matter. I think the essential point is that we did not help ourselves first. Making Algeria economically strong, promote tolerance within our diverse ethnics, educate the young, setup a good health system, and modernize our infrastructures. We had eastern European doctors that did not know anything about and were learning their medicine on our people. We paid billions of dollars for foreign companies for projects that were never finished. Monuments, a subway that caused more problemes to the land and the buildings.
Those times our government was more worry about others countries growth than ours. IT is sad to say that we had incompetent’s politicians... Oh yes great!!! we had souks a fellah that had almost nothing on the shelves, water shortages...
Anyone remembered the slogan campaign used: “By the people for the people.” BS…..Thank God I came out before I sank into that bucket of bs…………They need to look very close at their strategy, get some people like us who can see form the outside and that have seen the inside in order to fix years of mistakes. It is not about satisfying the west, east or the Middle East. It is about taking care of our people. None of these cares about whether we rise into a DECENT economical phase… I am saying decent because it will take us major’s changes before we see can any improvement.
Where are we today? Nowhere.
While Spain finds its solutions with the Basques... We still debate whether the Kabyle community has the right to exist? Of course we do.. We have been there in the first place. We feel betrayed by all side even ours.
When are the politicians and the population going to wake up and smell the coffee?
When are going to finally get our young generation some hope for their future...It is not an error ...I call it greed, stupidity, and incompetence.
Spain is not the example I will take... India…1000 religions, diverse ethnics. Yes they have poverty... But they are a great example of survival and tolerance.
I say we should cut our close ties to the middle-east- Start building our future not based on cultural or religion as a base. Think about cutting a cancer that is propagating into our mind.
I can go on for days….I ‘m saddened by the course of our evolution. I correct myself; I am saddened by our degradation.
.........................................
Those times our government was more worry about others countries growth than ours. IT is sad to say that we had incompetent’s politicians... Oh yes great!!! we had souks a fellah that had almost nothing on the shelves, water shortages...
Anyone remembered the slogan campaign used: “By the people for the people.” BS…..Thank God I came out before I sank into that bucket of bs…………They need to look very close at their strategy, get some people like us who can see form the outside and that have seen the inside in order to fix years of mistakes. It is not about satisfying the west, east or the Middle East. It is about taking care of our people. None of these cares about whether we rise into a DECENT economical phase… I am saying decent because it will take us major’s changes before we see can any improvement.
Where are we today? Nowhere.
...........................................
Puis-je me permettre une taquinerie ?
Vous ressortez de votre cocon, après plus de trois ans d'hibernation... et c'est un plaisir de vous lire!
Anyhow, if I may say so, Algerians have not changed since then, to some extent... and worse the Kabyles are the real culprits when it came to helping one another.
True, the government catered t foreigner, the eternal "We want to be recognized as the do-gooders of the Third World"!
In retrospect I wonder in my old age if it was not us, Kabyles, who dug our own grave(s).
After independence, we all chose to sit on the sidelines before some of our former leader put us on the wrong track while they never forgot their selfish way of providing for themselves and their families, either in Algeria or abroad.
What happened to people like you?
I know for one that to some extent I never missed anything although I left at the very early stages of independence.
That did not prevent me from visiting regularly my family...
HOWEVER, AFTER ALL THE SACRICES of so many or so few9 depending on how you see it), I believe it is time that Kabyles from everywhere "reclaim" their ancestral rights.
And I would add that the time is ripe:
In our country, the kabyles should seize the occasion to spread the good WORD: learn Tamazight
We should not be Shying in pursuing Economic growth by helping one another
An I dare say that maybe it is time to push all our politicians to dissolve their parties and create a new Political party that would embrace as a member any DEMOCRAT, be it Kabyle or open to our Ideals.
Think of Algiers? 1962 ... 70% of the people came from the Kabylie mountains; Blida in 1950 had a 90% of the population who spoke Kabyle....
In order to "RECLAIM" our country, we should be proactive, not passive.
We need people who are actors and who are not afraid to put things in meaningful words.
As for me, I am afraid ... with the little breath left in me, I can't see myself contributing anymore as I did in the Old Past... but Who Knows?
Ar tufat!
Papillon
19/02/2006, 09h33
Puis-je me permettre une taquinerie ?
Vous ressortez de votre cocon, après plus de trois ans d'hibernation... et c'est un plaisir de vous lire!
Anyhow, if I may say so, Algerians have not changed since then, to some extent... and worse the Kabyles are the real culprits when it came to helping one another.
True, the government catered t foreigner, the eternal "We want to be recognized as the do-gooders of the Third World"!
In retrospect I wonder in my old age if it was not us, Kabyles, who dug our own grave(s).
After independence, we all chose to sit on the sidelines before some of our former leader put us on the wrong track while they never forgot their selfish way of providing for themselves and their families, either in Algeria or abroad.
What happened to people like you?
I know for one that to some extent I never missed anything although I left at the very early stages of independence.
That did not prevent me from visiting regularly my family...
HOWEVER, AFTER ALL THE SACRICES of so many or so few9 depending on how you see it), I believe it is time that Kabyles from everywhere "reclaim" their ancestral rights.
And I would add that the time is ripe:
In our country, the kabyles should seize the occasion to spread the good WORD: learn Tamazight
We should not be Shying in pursuing Economic growth by helping one another
An I dare say that maybe it is time to push all our politicians to dissolve their parties and create a new Political party that would embrace as a member any DEMOCRAT, be it Kabyle or open to our Ideals.
Think of Algiers? 1962 ... 70% of the people came from the Kabylie mountains; Blida in 1950 had a 90% of the population who spoke Kabyle....
In order to "RECLAIM" our country, we should be proactive, not passive.
We need people who are actors and who are not afraid to put things in meaningful words.
As for me, I am afraid ... with the little breath left in me, I can't see myself contributing anymore as I did in the Old Past... but Who Knows?
Ar tufat!
My dear friend, It is ok to tease me. The truth should not hurt anyone if it is meant to open our eyes. I think I have been hibernating for too long. We all did; poeple abraod and onboard. We closed our eyes, we accepted to be lead by dreams sellers. We were told unify the people. But in reality we growth apart more every day. I am not there but my hart lay where my ancestors where born, I can still smell the air of my town, the warm of my people. At last the one I knew...What happen to us. You mentionne 1950 Blida was 90% kabyle. Well not at my time, most nouveau riche proclamed the city as theirs and made it " la ville des Blideens". New breed of people invaded the city and it was not longer the time to say you are kabyle...In fear of being told go back to our mountains. I want my people to live in peace, democracy, and weatlth. But looking at it from a female perpective " The Man" has not looked at history for quite a while..Matter fact they never tried to learn from the past. A simple analogy, imagine that politic is like painting a picture. A good painter will learn from master in order to achieve "la piece unique". Politicians if compare to a painter, instead of learning how to paint...They just take can of paint and spread it left and right.
As long as you are breathing you can still do some...Even if you just educate the new generations about our past... I wish I can still talk to my parents.. They were my best book I have ever read. I earnt so much by just listening to their debates on politics.. I really think that we can all do something to evangilise that change is needed.. It is needed for the good. Youngs should start using their brains and think about their future, if they dont nobody will. Oil is not going to be here forever, global warming is here to stay. Aids is in every corner of the world, and I can list numerous serious things that the younger generations has to act on. If everyone does just a small % of contribution we all be happy. But the start is to have like your said people that will act in good faith of poeple...Not people who like to take the cookies in the jars for themselves. We do not need people that just spread words to mask the real issues.
People wake up and smell the coffe...You need to stop being des troupeau de brebis. I hate the show Dallas.. But the sad thing is that our people idealise that show. But it is just a movie...Someone need to make a movie and retrace back who we were...JR de Tizi-Ouzou.
I think I have said enough...We have very smart people...and young poeple my hope is to count on then to make the change.
Ma derniere pensee.. Je souhaiterais qu'un jour je rentre chez moi..Et je me sens bien, je n'ai pas besoin de craindre quoique ce soit. Je veux retrouver la beaute de mon peuple, la chaleur de nos etes, la douceur de nos printemps, et surtout les tombes de ceux que j'ai perdu et aime toujours. Je ne demande pas trop.
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